Definition of the word "Charismatic"

[BeProf]

This is a topic suggested by something from another thread.

What, to you, is a good definition of the word "Charismatic"?

What, to you, is a good definition of the word "Pentecostal"?

What difference is there, if any, between those two concepts?

[canuk]

charis = grace
matic = action

God's grace in action.

Important to note is that God's grace is monergistic and unilateral.

[5minutes]

Technically....

Pentecostalism is the denomination. Charismaticism is the movement outside of the Pentecostal movement. In behavior, other than organizational structure, there's little difference.

[Tracker]

Technically....

Pentecostalism is the denomination. Charismaticism is the movement outside of the Pentecostal movement. In behavior, other than organizational structure, there's little difference.

5 got it.

[Atlas]

In the 70's in Spain I ran into a bunch of commune dwelling American and European young men and women who called themselves, "Children of God". They "love bombed" me, soft warm joyous Christian love, very touchy. I was like, Wow! This ain't the way we do it back home.

We prayed and ate and sat in circles and talked Jesus. The women were earnest, loving and welcoming and kept me company in between the less joyful, but "friendly" assaults by the men encouraging me to forsake the Navy. It became clear that they wanted me to give the commune all I possessed and join them. It was all rather uncomfortable and I wanted to leave but no - I simply must listen as they read the letter they had received that very day from their spiritual loader, Moses David, a true prophet of God.

I found myself cornered - literally - maneuvered into a corner of the floor farthest from the door. It was a bizarre experience for me. They were ga-ga over the guy. Every freakin sentence was an "Oooo, Ahhhh" experience for them, I kid you not. "I send greetings" -"Oooo, Ahhh - Us... he's writing to us!"

Man, that Moses David is a long winded heretic. There was spontaneous singing and prayers in tongues and stuff I'd never seen. And everyone was having fun, fun, fun as Moses David told them how good they had it, how wonderful they were, and how great he was - and he had a prophecy. A comet was coming that was told by God to him to be: a sign, a great and fantastic light in the heavens. The comet was named Kohoutek and would appear in fabulous glory soon.

They could hardly contain themselves, emotional bubbles with secret knowledge to give strength, support, and proof of their faith. When Kohoutek arrived it was a big disppointment. A fizzle, a flop. Hardly noticable in the night sky. Moses David sent another letter explaining how his prophecy had been fulfilled(another sailor showed it to me as we swapped tales), and those disciples were, no doubt, thrilled.

Charismatic to me meant cultish. Strong spirit leadership with emotional unthinking followers. I thought Pentacostals were the mainstream religions response to the heartfelt emotional worship that energized the nuts.

Hey, anybody can be wrong! But I still believe their appreciation of Christian faith finds it strength more in their feelings than their thoughts.

[Tracker]

Charismatic to me meant cultish. Strong spirit leadership with emotional unthinking followers. I thought Pentacostals were the mainstream religions response to the heartfelt emotional worship that energized the nuts.

Hey, anybody can be wrong! But I still believe their appreciation of Christian faith finds it strength more in their feelings than their thoughts.

also accurate.

[cjoglesby]

In the 70's in Spain I ran into a bunch of commune dwelling American and European young men and women who called themselves, "Children of God". They "love bombed" me, soft warm joyous Christian love, very touchy. I was like, Wow! This ain't the way we do it back home.

We prayed and ate and sat in circles and talked Jesus. The women were earnest, loving and welcoming and kept me company in between the less joyful, but "friendly" assaults by the men encouraging me to forsake the Navy. It became clear that they wanted me to give the commune all I possessed and join them. It was all rather uncomfortable and I wanted to leave but no - I simply must listen as they read the letter they had received that very day from their spiritual loader, Moses David, a true prophet of God.

I found myself cornered - literally - maneuvered into a corner of the floor farthest from the door. It was a bizarre experience for me. They were ga-ga over the guy. Every freakin sentence was an "Oooo, Ahhhh" experience for them, I kid you not. "I send greetings" -"Oooo, Ahhh - Us... he's writing to us!"

Man, that Moses David is a long winded heretic. There was spontaneous singing and prayers in tongues and stuff I'd never seen. And everyone was having fun, fun, fun as Moses David told them how good they had it, how wonderful they were, and how great he was - and he had a prophecy. A comet was coming that was told by God to him to be: a sign, a great and fantastic light in the heavens. The comet was named Kohoutek and would appear in fabulous glory soon.

They could hardly contain themselves, emotional bubbles with secret knowledge to give strength, support, and proof of their faith. When Kohoutek arrived it was a big disppointment. A fizzle, a flop. Hardly noticable in the night sky. Moses David sent another letter explaining how his prophecy had been fulfilled(another sailor showed it to me as we swapped tales), and those disciples were, no doubt, thrilled.

Charismatic to me meant cultish. Strong spirit leadership with emotional unthinking followers. I thought Pentacostals were the mainstream religions response to the heartfelt emotional worship that energized the nuts.

Hey, anybody can be wrong! But I still believe their appreciation of Christian faith finds it strength more in their feelings than their thoughts.



Sounds a lot like those bright and shiny people on the Bubble Boy movie. They were just scary. All the females named Elaine, and the guys named Todd. Freaky.

[mrsbates]

i dont know much about pentacostels but there are charismatic catholics too. sort of just crazy people.

[Tears]

I was told by christians that catholics aren't all christians (some of them are, some of them aren't) because they pray to mary etc instead of praying to God.. and they have saints who they worship etc.. i have also heard of charismatic catholics.. it's hard to imagine what they'd be like...

[mrsbates]

no, i dont think so. in the catholic church its a mortal (damning) sin to worship anyone but God.

catholic charistamtics- sort of like white people trying to act like the gospel preachers in the black baptist churches. i saw some once. kind of pathetic. reason i went traditional.

[Atlas]

In defense of Charismatics and Pentacostalists, I'd like to point out the faith devoid of feeling is dead. Every warm, peaceful, or joyous feeling from the Holy Spirit is a "felt" experience.

Doubt is nowhere to be found in the joyous heart. Doubt is a head thing, if you don't like it, get out of your head. Pentacostals know that way.

There are times in our lives, depending on the gifts that are ours, when closeness is felt by the heart in the beauty of God and other times when closeness comes through the mind in witness to awesome or subtle truth.

If doubt is the demon that assails you night and day, you could do worse than open yourself to the ways of Pentacostals. Turn off your mind and feel the Lord's touch - it removes all doubt.

In the end, you must love God with your whole heart, soul, and mind - hold that close - but don't be afraid to practice them one at a time.

[Tears]

Sometimes you sound heaps like a christian

[Vader]

In defense of Charismatics and Pentacostalists, I'd like to point out the faith devoid of feeling is dead. Every warm, peaceful, or joyous feeling from the Holy Spirit is a "felt" experience.

Doubt is nowhere to be found in the joyous heart. Doubt is a head thing, if you don't like it, get out of your head. Pentacostals know that way.

There are times in our lives, depending on the gifts that are ours, when closeness is felt by the heart in the beauty of God and other times when closeness comes through the mind in witness to awesome or subtle truth.

If doubt is the demon that assails you night and day, you could do worse than open yourself to the ways of Pentacostals. Turn off your mind and feel the Lord's touch - it removes all doubt.

In the end, you must love God with your whole heart, soul, and mind - hold that close - but don't be afraid to practice them one at a time.

Wow, fantastic post.

[mrsbates]

yeah.. but alot of times, charismatics get out of hand.
they tend to have visions and prophecise at an unnatural and unhealthy rate.

[Tears]

Yeah I have had bad experiences with charismatic people.. not saying they're all bad.
But the ones I did know were WACKED

[mrsbates]

waked... is putting it mildly.

i have a cousin, he went to a charismatic catholic "mass" where "nuns" "consecareted" bannana bread.

theyre kind of violent-insane too.
whacked? whacko?

[Tears]

dont worry.. i think a lot of catholics are wacked too.. :P

[mrsbates]

like me.
durr hir hur squeak
were all mad here
lol

[Vader]

Ok, let's keep it on topic WITHOUT attacking people of other denominations.

[Tears]

its a bit hard... there are so many hypocrites and nasty ppl who call themselves christians.. but ok i will try

[Vader]

Yes, there are many of those. But, there are FAR MORE real and sincere Christians than hypocrits. And, its against the rules to attack other denominations here in the Theology forum. If you disagree with their beliefs, fine. But its not ok to call them crazy and wackos and such. Our Catholic brethern here don't like it when others do that to them. Its not unreasonable for them to not do that to others.

[Tears]

oh ok.. maybe we should have a thread for each denomination and list all the reasons why each is wacked.. that would at least make it fair ;)

[Vader]

You could, but it would get zapped really really fast. :p

[Tears]

... with a light saber?

[Vader]

If need be, yes.

[Tears]

Awesome :D

[BeProf]

Technically....

Pentecostalism is the denomination. Charismaticism is the movement outside of the Pentecostal movement. In behavior, other than organizational structure, there's little difference.

That's the most widely circulated one I've seen.

Here's the taxonomy I've been working with:

Pentecostalism is a family of denominations that grew out of the Holiness movement. This family of denominations is distinct from the Holiness movement by virtue of a few pneumatological particulars:

- The belief that one receives the gift of the Holy Spirit as a separate event subsequent to salvation called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This concept is similar to the Holiness concept of sanctification, but distinct from it in that the Holiness view is that one already has the Holy Spirit within him at conversion, but one may not yet be living in full submission to the Holy Ghost. This is also in opposition to the Catholic/Orthodox in that this "second blessing" is received without mediation, rather than sacramentally.

- The belief that this gift is *always* accompanied by speaking in tongues. If you didn't speak in tongues, you didn't get the Holy Ghost. No ifs. No ands. No buts.

- The belief that the tongues mentioned above are some kind of private prayer language rather than an actual human language unknown to the speaker.

Needless to say that first point with it's penumatological implications can be a sticker amongst some folks. Consequently, there is a closely related Charismatic movement that holds to the later two practical points (to one extent or another) but not the first. These people will tend to speak of being "filled with" the Holy Ghost rather than being "baptized in" the Holy Ghost. (although they may say neither). The important point of the Charismatic movement is the idea that "prayer language" tongues are *the* sign of a life fully in submission to the Holy Ghost.

The reason I was asking this question (other than the sheer geeky thrill of theological taxonomy) is because I think that our language on this subject is incomplete. We have Pentecostal and Charismatic on one side and Cessationalism on the other, but we have no adequate language to describe the various positions that are neither Pentecostal, Charismatic, or Cessationalist.

My church, for instance, holds an "all but" Charismatic position first formulated by Tozer - Tongues (as private prayer language) are *a* sign that one is living in full submission to the Holy Ghost, but they are by no means *the* sign. Other than that (and the sign out front), you'd have a really hard time telling the difference between us and a traditional Assemblies of God church (i.e. one where they don't allow people to stand up and start shouting in tongues... unless, of course, an "interpreter" is present).

I personally hold a slightly modified view that "private prayer languages" aren't tongues. They're a well known and well demonstrated psychological phenomenon found in *lots* of religions. Tongues (in the biblical sense) involves speaking in (or at least being heard to speak in) *human* languages unknown to the speaker. This sort of thing does, indeed, still happen today in precisely the location you would expect to see it happen - the mission field. There is, to my knowledge, no word to describe that view (although in all fairness, I may be the only one to hold it).

[mrsbates]

i dont want to sound rascist....

but i have noticed that black charismatic groups seem to be closer to the treu spirit, but the white folkls tend to get a little wacko.

not sure why.

[BeProf]

i dont want to sound rascist....

but i have noticed that black charismatic groups seem to be closer to the treu spirit, but the white folkls tend to get a little wacko.

not sure why.

I think that's fair, at least for parts of the country. The reason for that is simple, btw: the earliest Pentecostal churches were black.

There's also another distinction worth making: that between authentic Pentecostalism and the Word-Faith movement. By the language you're using, I suspect that you're already seeing the difference between the two. Those whacky guys on TV? All Word-Faith. Those preachers who talk about "name it and claim it" or "health and wealth"? All Word-Faith. Those churches where people run up and down the isles while the preacher speaks in tongues on the PA system? Word-faith.

Authentic Pentecostalism is getting harder and harder to come by these days. Jack Hayford (of the Foursquare denomination) leaps to mind. Generally speaking, you can't tell that an authentic Pentecostal church is Pentecostal these days, unless you really know what to look for. They appear to the casual observer to be just another evangelical church. Thiis is because they take seriously Paul's admonission to keep worship orderly and to not put their miraculous gifts on display before unbelievers. When they speak in tongues, they do so quietly and keep it between themselves and God. "Old school" Pentecostal women (those still deeply rooted in the Holiness movement) will often not wear any make-up or jewlery.

[Lunkwill]

There's a Holiness Pentecostal church near me where the men and women sit on separate sides of the church. They evidently don't think men and women should even be friends socially. I went to serivces there twice with a friend from high school. It was pretty wierd.

I would think these folks were extreme even for a *holiness* church, but I haven't been back to a *holiness* church since.

[bbowman]

I heard these definitions about how many Christians see the gifts of the Spirit.

Cessationists - Believe some of the gifts stopped being used with the death of the apostles. This includes tongues.

Charismatics - Believe all of the gifts are in use today but in accordance with the guidelines set up by Paul in 1 Cor.

Charismaniacs - Believe all of the gifts are in use today but put a special emphasis on tongues.

Pentecostals - Believe all of the gifts are in use today and can be used by anybody, anytime.

[William F. Almeida]

I would say it's like this:

Cessationists - Believe some of the gifts stopped being used with the death of the apostles. This includes tongues.

Pentecostals- Believe all of the gifts are in use today but in accordance with the guidelines set up by Paul in 1 Cor.

Charismatics - Believe all of the gifts are in use today but put a special emphasis on tongues.

Charismaniacs- Believe all of the gifts are in use today and can be used by anybody, anytime.
__________________

I know a lot of Pentecostals who are very serious about how to use God's Gift....


- The belief that one receives the gift of the Holy Spirit as a separate event subsequent to salvation called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This concept is similar to the Holiness concept of sanctification, but distinct from it in that the Holiness view is that one already has the Holy Spirit within him at conversion, but one may not yet be living in full submission to the Holy Ghost. This is also in opposition to the Catholic/Orthodox in that this "second blessing" is received without mediation, rather than sacramentally.

- The belief that this gift is *always* accompanied by speaking in tongues. If you didn't speak in tongues, you didn't get the Holy Ghost. No ifs. No ands. No buts.

- The belief that the tongues mentioned above are some kind of private prayer language rather than an actual human language unknown to the speaker.

This is a close interpretation of what Pentecostals believe.
About the 2nd point: Its not that you didnt get the holy Ghot, you have Him during Salvation, it's that you didnt get His Baptism.

The third point- it's not always done this way. It can be either or.

The first point is defended by the acts in Acts. they prayed, the Spirit came and then they spoke in tougues.

[BeProf]

There's a Holiness Pentecostal church near me where the men and women sit on separate sides of the church. They evidently don't think men and women should even be friends socially. I went to serivces there twice with a friend from high school. It was pretty wierd.

I would think these folks were extreme even for a *holiness* church, but I haven't been back to a *holiness* church since.

That's real old-school. Even the Holiness churches never went that far. Pentecostalism started as a sort of "super-holiness" Holiness church.

I suppose it's worth defining the word "Holiness" for those who may not be familiar with that term...

The Holiness movement grew out of the Methodist church in the 19th Century. It is marked by a few distinctives:

- A belief that it is possible for a Christian to be "wholly sanctified" and to live in perfect obedience to God, free from all conscious, wilfull sin.

- A belief that this sanctification is a special "crisis" event (i.e. instantaneous), subsequent to salvation.

- A belief that after this sanctification, one can have assurance of salvation (rather than a guarantee, since Holiness churches are Arminian/Wesleyan in their theology).

Finney was instrumental in the early development of this movement. A Calvinistic version of it began to circulate with William Boardman. D.L. Moody was a sympathizer with this movement, although he never really endorsed it.

Denominations that grew out of the Holiness movement include the Salvation Army, the Wesleyan Church, the Free Methodist Church, the Church of the Nazarene, and the Church of God.

Deserving of special note (and not just because I'm a member of it) is the red-headed stepchild of the Holiness family - the Christian & Missionary Alliance. The C&MA is a kind of "Holiness lite" church in much the same way that it's a kind of "Charismatic lite" church. We believe in sanctification as the "deeper Christian life" but not the kind of Christian Perfectionism espoused by Wesleyans. We believe that sanctification is both a crisis wherin we submit ourselves fully to God's will for our lives and a process that starts at conversion and continues to death.

Likewise, much of our theology is almost Pentecostal in outlook (esp. regarding healing and the supernatual gifts of the Holy Ghost), but we aren't Pentecostal in the strictest sense of the word. We are a kind of "bridge" between the two movements. You can sort of classify us either as the last Holiness church or the first Pentecostal church, but we don't fit neatly into either category.

And for the record, notable C&MA Pastors include A.W. Tozer, Robert Jaffray, Jr. (one of the first succesful protestant missionaries to inland China), and Ravi Zacharias. Famous "regular joe" members include Todd Beamer (of Flight 93/"Let's Roll" fame), Cam Ward (goalie for the Carolina Hurricanes), and the Rt. Hon. Stephen Harper, the current Prime Minister of Canada... and of course... yours truly.

[Candlemass]

charis = grace
matic = action

God's grace in action.

Important to note is that God's grace is monergistic and unilateral.


Charis= crazy

Matic= maniac
:D

[Svetlio]

OK, I'm charismatic and I can speak in tongues. I want to say several things in defence of pentecostals and charismatics ( here, in Bulgaria )

1. We don't believe that if you don't speak in tongues you won't be saved. This is an extra gift.
2. We don't believe always when somebody has a vision. Everything should be examined ( I'm speaking this but I never had visions ).