The sacrifice of Jesus

[nayrki]

This is a little question I have been pondering for the last few days and is bothering me a little bit:

Since Jesus obviously knew he was going to be resurrected, how was his death a sacrifice? And furthermore, since Jesus was resurrected, how does his death pay for the sins of the world?


A somewhat related question is:

If God is all powerful and can create the world by just saying "Let there be...", is not praise to him mere flattery? And what is praiseworthy in being perfect? Is not the accomplishments, the incomplete perfection a feeble and imperfect man attains more worthy? Now consider the following:

(A) A comparitively small army of natives with rocks and spears attacking and nearly defeating the enemy, who has tanks and guns.

(B) A man in an office building somewhere pushing a big red button and taking out the same army with a nuclear missile.

Which do you think deserves praise? The one with the effortless and utter victory, or the ones that fought as hard as possible and got close but never achieved victory? I think the answer is obvious.

So why does God deserve praise? And what sacrifice did Jesus make?
That is one question I can't even begin to answer.

[graybeardheadbanger]

This is a little question I have been pondering for the last few days and is bothering me a little bit:

Since Jesus obviously knew he was going to be resurrected, how was his death a sacrifice? And furthermore, since Jesus was resurrected, how does his death pay for the sins of the world?


A somewhat related question is:

If God is all powerful and can create the world by just saying "Let there be...", is not praise to him mere flattery? And what is praiseworthy in being perfect? Is not the accomplishments, the incomplete perfection a feeble and imperfect man attains more worthy? Now consider the following:

(A) A comparitively small army of natives with rocks and spears attacking and nearly defeating the enemy, who has tanks and guns.

(B) A man in an office building somewhere pushing a big red button and taking out the same army with a nuclear missile.

Which do you think deserves praise? The one with the effortless and utter victory, or the ones that fought as hard as possible and got close but never achieved victory? I think the answer is obvious.

So why does God deserve praise? And what sacrifice did Jesus make?
That is one question I can't even begin to answer.


t's great that someone at your point in life (16?) is already thinking about such things. Don't be afraid to ask questions about your faith--I went through a long period of religious doubt for many years, but God saw me through and I came back with a deeper understanding, and confidence of, his truth than ever.
The main thing is always to remain open to the possibility that He really is truth.

I'll tackle your first question, about the sacrifice of Christ. My belief is that we focus too much on the actual death of the crucifixion. Death was absolutely necessary, don't get me wrong, but the way we focus on it raises questions exactly like yours--how was it that hard if He knew He would resurrect, haven't other people died in even worse way, etc. My own personal "take" on it is that the "heart" of His sacrifice comes from the fact that he experienced the alienation of all the sin in the history of the cosmos ("Why have you forsaken me"), and that death was more or less the culmination of this. When we are hidden from the love of God (which every sin involves), there is always physical or emotional suffering involved. Think of all the pain in the world--in hten history of the world? And I might think this includes non-human pain (e.g. animals) as well. It's all a result of our fallen condition. Now, imagine experiencing all this, on one person, in a concentrated form, as Christ did on the cross. It would be emotionally, psychologicall, and physically virtually unbearable. But that's what He did.

By taking all this upon Himself, and letting it come to its natural conclusion (death), He was able to overcome it by then resurrecting. The death on the cross does not accomplish our salvation by itself; the resurrection is the real key to the story. Now, the question becomes how do we partake of the benefits of this death and resurrection? That is one that Christian of different traditions answer differently. I believe it happens in many ways, but that it is exemplified by the participation, in faith, of his resurrected flesh and blood of the communion. This is why some (I want to say Irenaeus of Lyon, a 3rd century Father, but I might be wrong) describes communion as the "medicine of immortality." We also participate well through charity; when we help the unforuntate, we take on some of their suffering, just as He did, and we also participate somewhat in its overcoming, which He has provided. In a small way, in chairty we participate in His death and resurrection.

This also brings an answer to your second question. In your analogy, the real question is on how much does one try relative to one's ability. If God provides Himself infinitely, than His "effort" (though we must speak figuratively here) is as great in proportion as those who attack the army with stones, etc. But that's only one part of the equation. What makes their effort noble is not just their effort, but the justice of their cause. Everything we do is possiuble only because God continues to "undergird" the forces of the world which keep us in existence. Thus, when we apply ourselves to our maximum for justice, He is directly part of this process as well. So, God always applies Himself infinitely, and with perfect justice. In this case, even by the scenario you have raised, He is worthy of the greatest praise.

graybeardheadbanger

[Gamma]

Im speechless theses men have spoken really important things and agree with graybeardheadbanger, as in my way to life I havent ask myself theese things even wehn I doubted the Lord

[cjoglesby]

Ive often had questions. Even now, I have more questions than answers. Such as, isn't it kinda selfish for God to create man just to have somebody to worship him. Now I don't claim to be a bible scholar at all. I don't know much at all. I start reading and it just becomes a jumbled mess in my mind. So don't tear my head off and say that's not the only reason he created man. It's just something that pops into my mind every now and then. But I don't let it bother me. I just tell myself that it's part of a great plan. I feel so guilty when I think things like that. But then I get over it. I do love the Lord, and will continue til I'm home with him. He can answer my questions when I get there.

[psycopunk]

Ive often had questions. Even now, I have more questions than answers. Such as, isn't it kinda selfish for God to create man just to have somebody to worship him. Now I don't claim to be a bible scholar at all. I don't know much at all. I start reading and it just becomes a jumbled mess in my mind. So don't tear my head off and say that's not the only reason he created man. It's just something that pops into my mind every now and then. But I don't let it bother me. I just tell myself that it's part of a great plan. I feel so guilty when I think things like that. But then I get over it. I do love the Lord, and will continue til I'm home with him. He can answer my questions when I get there.


i agree with asking God questions when i am UP there but has any one ever heard that God and Jesus being one person the example that , someone gave me was this " God and Jesus are like a egg one thing but different layers" it has never made sence to me.

[Via Crucis]

The Trinity is part of the Divine Mystery which is largely unfathomable for the human mind.

[kmbach]

I always thought it was a sacrifice (in my mind) because we killed Jesus for something he never deserved to die for. He had to endure all the world's sins and suffer on the cross because of us. He sacrificed himself. The sacrifice isn't as important as the reason behind it.

[GoDRulZ]

remember too, Jesus was fully man as well as fully God - meaning he suffered like any man would under the circumstances. The pain of his Father rejecting him on the cross was overwelming for Jesus but totally necessary, as Jesus alone bore the sins of mankind to be the perfect sacrifice for us all. Something God did because he loved us. Do we sacrifice ourselves in anyway for those that don't love us in return? Jesus did, and for this he deserves every bit of praise.

[slamdancer777]

i agree with asking God questions when i am UP there but has any one ever heard that God and Jesus being one person the example that , someone gave me was this " God and Jesus are like a egg one thing but different layers" it has never made sence to me.

That comparison is frequently refered to as modalism...It can not work and is conidered by many to be a heresy...which is why it never made sense to you. 2 thumbs up.

[nayrki]

Umm... this isn't a question about the trinity.

[slamdancer777]

Umm... this isn't a question about the trinity.

Your initial question was not...but that is where it went.

[Tears]

I think nayrki has more wisdom than you people answering her(?) questions.
xtianity has many flaws and xtians just seem to like to sweep them under the carpet.

[GoDRulZ]

I think nayrki has more wisdom than you people answering her(?) questions.
xtianity has many flaws and xtians just seem to like to sweep them under the carpet.
I see nothing in any of the replies to nayrki that indicate anything remotely coming close to being swept under the carpet. Care to elaborate?

[Tears]

i wasnt speaking about the replies.. just xtianity in general. There are so many flaws and contradictions and unanswered stuff.. important stuff... but xtians generally tend to go 'oh well thats where faith comes in' or 'we don't need to understand that otherwise God would have made it clearer' and stuff like that... seems like blind faith, but thats just my opinion

[LadyRocker]

That's too general of a statement. Please try to be more specific about what you mean. It might help us understand you a little better. Maybe we can help you understand why you're having problems. Otherwise, we just don't know what you mean. Can you give Biblical examples of what you see wrong?

[Candlemass]

Actually, you were, at least in part, speaking about the replies, when you said she had more wisdom than any who replied, how so?

[Tears]

because she had the guts to admit that there are faults and contradictions in the bible.
sorry for being 'too general' or whatever.. but, among other things, that is my experience of xtians.

[GoDRulZ]

don't tarnish all with the same brush eh. Sounds like you hold a bit of a grudge there. Sure, Christians don't have all the answers and it would be ignorant if any said they did. The best answers you can get to your questions though Tears are sincere and honest answers.

[nayrki]

Two things:

(A) I'm a guy

(B) My question is not so much doubting christianity and the validity of the bible, but rather questioning the character of God himself.

I believe that while the bible can be a very confusing book at times, and there are many things that cannot be understood, that the bible is still the word of God and still needs to be given such respect. My solution: If you don't understand, read and LEARN!

[Tears]

That's awesome.. yeah I wish more xtians would think like that!
Sorry for calling you "her" before

[GoDRulZ]

so nayrki, what are your opinions regarding the replies to your questions?

[kmbach]

I was waiting for that, ryan, I was thinking: he'll be back and he'll be like "what? I'm a guy!" haha!