Beginner Guitar Question

[PhoenixRising]

greetings all you guitarists out there

hither comes a question from a complete guitar n00b

basically, i've always wanted to play a guitar, and i've been (slowly..lol) saving up for one..

problem is...i don't know which one to get

i don't need anything super-duper fancy, but i don't want a junk guitar either that will only be good for a year or two...at the max

i like the looks of this guitar (http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product/buy_epiphone_goth_les_paul_studio_electric_guitar? full_sku=517233%2e001), and it's gotten good reviews, but i want some of your opinions..

i'm looking for a guitar in the $200-$400 price range...pretty much anything beyond $400 will be too expensive..in fact, the cheaper the better...lol

so yea, thanks for your help! :headbang:

[the EDGE]

you need to go play around there first. First of all find a guitar with a neck that fits your hand, not your fancy...trust me on this....I did what you did and now I am paying the price, till I can change that. Then after that worry about the fancy part of it. You have to be comfortable when playing the guitar!

[Lunkwill]

edge is right, try as many different brands aas you can within your price range and then decide based on playing comfort and pickup configuration more than how many bells and whistles it has.

Personally I'd stay away from a whammy bar at first, then move up to it when you become more solid with the fundamentals.

[bigjtink]

I would start with an acoustic and learn the fundamentals. Learn chords etc and then move on to an electric. By then you will have enouph knowledge to judge how playable an electric is or isnt.

[the EDGE]

it is ok to buy a cruddy guitar for $100....better to do that than buy one and find out you hate it, and then have to sell it.....

[Altruist]

Personally, I would say that you would be foolish to buy any cheap guitar other than Ibanez if you buy an electric. Cheap Ibanez guitars play ALOT better than any other cheap guitar.

[davidarlette]

I'm glad to hear you say that, cos I just bought an Ibanez for $900 Australian, but it is a Gretch copy, so cheap for what it is.

My first guitar was an Onyx strat copy, and I loved it. I would still play it, but the electrics rusted in it, and it got earthing problems. Pointis, it cost $300 Australian and is just great. If I had to choose an electric style for a beginner, I'd go Strat copy, they're really nice to play if you get the right one, and you can get lots of different sounds out of them. Compare the necks. Some will be "Skinny", some "fat."

My first teacher would so agree with bigjtink. I can still hear him: "You've got to learn on an acoustic first" which is probably fair enough. But the same guy had to gain the strength to carry a brick in each hand between his fingers facing downwards for a Km before HIS teacher would teach him the drums!

My advice: start steel-string acoustic. Go second hand, play a few, and buy the best you can afford. Solid top acoustics actually sound better as they age, so you are actually cheating if you buy one second hand (like from a pawn shop). I bought my first Fender acoustic that way. Never looked back.:)

[the EDGE]

Ibanez's are just ok to me. I have had one. I almost bought a custom, but they would not do nay other thing, but boltons, and that is not good for heavy metal, as most would think, but I also play different, than most too!

[davidarlette]

What's wrong with a bolt on for metal? You can play metal on a Strat (like Ynwie Malsteen), and they're all bolt-ons aren't they? BTW what is so important about how the neck attaches to the body? :confused:

[Lunkwill]

What's wrong with a bolt on for metal? You can play metal on a Strat (like Ynwie Malsteen), and they're all bolt-ons aren't they? BTW what is so important about how the neck attaches to the body? :confused:

Set neck and neck through body guitars have longer sustain than a bolt on neck. The attachment of the neck is generally tighter on a set or through body neck (there is no joint on a through body) which allows the tone to resonate more freely between the body and neck which in turn affects tone and produces more sustain.

I know a couple of guys who are luthiers, and according to them while this is technically true, the difference in sustain is very, very minimal if the bolt on neck is seated and attached properly.

There is a difference in tone as well bolt-on's tend to have more "spank" to their tone than does a set or through neck.

[PhoenixRising]

thanks for the help guys..i picked up my mom's achoustic yesterday and started playing..i made it to page 10 of the book..lol

[Father_Sole_Kiss]

i have no problems using a bolt on neck and playing metal

my advice is get a good sounding guitar, the last thing you need is not practicing because the instrument sounds horrible (ear fatigue is a serious issue with some instruments)... also get a good playing guitar, you dont want to lose interest in the instrument due to the way it hurts your hands (some of this is natural.. but too much is not good)

[Lunkwill]

i have no problems using a bolt on neck and playing metal

my advice is get a good sounding guitar, the last thing you need is not practicing because the instrument sounds horrible (ear fatigue is a serious issue with some instruments)... also get a good playing guitar, you dont want to lose interest in the instrument due to the way it hurts your hands (some of this is natural.. but too much is not good)



Sage advice there. ^^^^

My first guitar was soooo awful that I gave up and didn't pick it back up again until my mid 20's, then I tried to go straight to metal and hindered my progress even more....lol.

It still haunts me to this day, I've become a good rythm player, but I'm still lead challenged to a signifigant degree. Definitely get those fundamentals of the instrument down first, then the fundamentals of wichever style you want to further your study of.

[the EDGE]

david I have played boltons all my life, till I sat down and played a Schecter. I just played an E power 5 chord, and it lasted for what felt like hours. None of my other guitars could sustain the note. And as for guys like Malmsteen, he is not metal, I just call it shredding rock music. So when I look for a guitar, I look for many things now, like for one not buying another Ibanez other than the new 8 string they just put out! Right now I am between a Schecter C-1 Hellraiser FR and BC Rich JR V NT. They both have set necks, but is it a gnarly V, or a normal axe with EMG's already installed. It is a tough act, unless I could get them both:D

[PhoenixRising]

once again, thanks for the help guys :-] appreciate it! lol

[the EDGE]

good luck PR. Ask for help and we will help!

[davidarlette]

Phoenix, does that mean that you are going to use your Mum's guitar for now?
Another thing is the action. What Frost was saying is spot on. If you start with a bad guitar, it'll make you not want to play. So look at the action too (ie how far the strings are from the fingerboard halfway up the sring). Too high an action will be hard to play. Although you can get it lowered, it does cost money, which you don't want, so get one already set up.

Thanks for the tips about set-necks and neckthroughs. Edgecrusher, if Yngwie isn't metal, what are you playing slow enough that sustain matters to the rhythm guitar? Wouldn't you just be shredding. Also, last night someone told me some metal bands use Tele's. What effects/amps,settings would they use? Can you name one? I gotta hear this!

[the EDGE]

dave not to say wrong, but for almost 2 years I played on a $35 fake Gibson, and I poured out everything on that, till I could afford a better guitar! It is all about the player and what they really want. I find that if someone gives me something, it is harder for me to want to use it, no matter what, but if I have to fork out for it, like my Martin, I baby that thing, and will till the day I die!

Something to ponder on!
P.S. Action does play a factor in playing, but learn on crappy stuff is not bad!

[Father_Sole_Kiss]

dave not to say wrong, but for almost 2 years I played on a $35 fake Gibson, and I poured out everything on that, till I could afford a better guitar! It is all about the player and what they really want. I find that if someone gives me something, it is harder for me to want to use it, no matter what, but if I have to fork out for it, like my Martin, I baby that thing, and will till the day I die!

Something to ponder on!
P.S. Action does play a factor in playing, but learn on crappy stuff is not bad!

crappy action is bad if it is a deterrent to actually playing the thing.

[davidarlette]

Yeah, no joke. I have seen actions about half an inch high at the 12th fret. Imagine learning on that! I mean. looking around some actions are unreasonably high, unless if it was for slide only or something...

I usually have a basic checklist, looking for a 2nd hand guitar (assuming I know the type I want) and action, unless the shop will set it up for free is just about the first thing I look at. Followed by "are the pickups rusted?", if the strings are rusted you can guess that it hasn't been well loved either, probably sitting in a wardrobe somewhere, so I'd look down the neck for twists, check the intonation, check the low E string for tone and projection, check for fret buzz, especially in open chord positions, I am a bit like the the RACQ of guitars! :p

Having said that, if I look at 20 guitars, I always walk out with the first one I tried. Always. Maybe it's cos I pray about it first? And as happened recently, I can even walk out with a guitar I never expected like my new Tele (thanks edgecrusher, it really twangs!). And yes, it was the first one I tried.

[powermacho]

Ibanez's are just ok to me. I have had one. I almost bought a custom, but they would not do nay other thing, but boltons, and that is not good for heavy metal, as most would think, but I also play different, than most too!

That happened to me, I need a guitar to play THRASH METAL. and I got one to play WHORSHIP, even thought it is a good guitar, this is my first guitar and I can't play as fast with the one I have, Later I used a fender stratocaster, and It is much cheaper and faster to play

[powermacho]

For now, learn the basics and play it acoustic, until you feel that you are redy to move on

[davidarlette]

Also, of the acoustics the ideal would be a steel string (I find them better for chords than classical guitars) with a cutaway, so you can play the higher frets if you want to. Have you bought one yet?

[the EDGE]

PM you can play thrash on every guitar, even acoustic guitars! There is no type of thrash guitar!

[powermacho]

PM you can play thrash on every guitar, even acoustic guitars! There is no type of thrash guitar!

I know what you mean, and you are right, but in my washburn I can't move my fingers as easy and fast as the fender guitars. That is why I say that.

[the EDGE]

then what I say to that is you need a thinner neck! That, and you need to unclamp your hand from that guitar neck.....lol....sorry man I had the same problems too....lol

[powermacho]

That is what happens if you listen to the seller. :)

I went to get a fender stratocaster, but the seller convinced me to get a Washburn, because he says it is as good or even better as a Gibson.

The problem, is that it is not one of those beginner guitars that are easy to pick up and play. It is harder to do fast picking in my guitar.

That is my complain, and that is why it is better to try all guitars first before buying them

[the EDGE]

again I had a crappy guitar to start on, but it was by choice to work with it no matter what!

[NemenEmily]

I would suggest getting a fender stratocoustic. I have one and I'm a beginner as well... It's got a good sound for an acoustic and you can plug it into an amp if you want to.

[davidarlette]

A Fender what??!?

Sounds like a tele-gretsch-omatic banjo ukelele!

Can you post a link? I've gotta see this...:D

[Lunkwill]

A Fender what??!?

Sounds like a tele-gretsch-omatic banjo ukelele!

Can you post a link? I've gotta see this...:D

LOL..... you're crackin' me up man.... :D

here's the link: Stratacoustic (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Squier-Stratacoustic-AcousticElectric-guitar?sku=512730)

[davidarlette]

Thanks, that was really interesting. It looks weird with an electric guitar headstock, and I am curious, does it just sound like an acousitc, or does it have circuitry to make it sound like a strat if you want to?

[NemenEmily]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/r3dbl4ck/myguitar.jpg
This is my guitar.

[Lunkwill]

Thanks, that was really interesting. It looks weird with an electric guitar headstock, and I am curious, does it just sound like an acousitc, or does it have circuitry to make it sound like a strat if you want to?

It doesn't sound like a strat at all when plugged in. It's a decent, thin body, accoustic/electric, shaped like a strat. Not bad for what it is, but it will never do what a strat does.

[davidarlette]

And since it is hollow, it probably wouldn't burn as long as Jimi Hendrix's did, either. Such a waste.... he should have at least toasted some marshamllows over that burning baby.:D Dweezil Zappa owns it now, burned and all.

[powermacho]

And since it is hollow, it probably wouldn't burn as long as Jimi Hendrix's did, either. Such a waste.... he should have at least toasted some marshamllows over that burning baby.:D Dweezil Zappa owns it now, burned and all.

why marshmallows when you can do a nice barbecue :D

[davidarlette]

why marshmallows when you can do a nice barbecue :D

lol :D

You'd probably need a Les Paul to burn for long enough. Man, those things are heavy. :p

[Gollum]

Ahem... correction to a pervious post... please don't call Malmstein's tone metal, it's anything but. Most players hate his tone, and if anything it's just a super spongey high gain rock, not metal.

For the most part though edge is right. Bolt ons don't have the sustain and note definition metal players like. Ibanez DOES however make some good set neck guitars, like the SZ series, ARX and ARC guitar (all of which I'd back with my words, they're great guitars, all three of those series).

For bellow $400 there's a SLEW of options out there. You could get a budget ibanez. The key here is to know what you like now, and want to sound like. The most "safe" electric guitar is a set neck, maple top guitar preferably withe a mahogany body. This is the basic les paul setup. It's been the standard ever since it's introduction. The other main factor is humbucking or single coil. Most metal and rock players prefer humbuckers but single coils still have their place to be sure. But it's much easier to get aftermarket humbuckers that can be coil split to work as single coils, than it is to get single coils that sound like humbuckers.

If you were a country player i'd recomend a strat, but you're here, on FS. So here's what I'd recomend.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ibanez-ARX120-Electric-Guitar?sku=512353
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ibanez-Artist-ART100-Electric-Guitar?sku=512354
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ibanez-ARX100CA-Electric-Guitar?sku=517965
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ibanez-ARC100BS-Electric-Guitar?sku=517967
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ibanez-ARX320-Electric-Guitar?sku=512349
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Epiphone-Goth-Les-Paul-Studio-Electric-Guitar?sku=517233
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Epiphone-Les-Paul-Classic-Quilt-Top?sku=518353X
(note the above model is a blemish model, thus the price)
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Schecter-006-Deluxe-Electric-Guitar?sku=518183
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Schecter-Omen-6-Electric-Guitar?sku=518181


Now, personally my policy is ALWAYS play as many guitars and find one in your price range that speaks to you. But as a beginner this is tough to do and your opinion isn't reliable as it will most likely change. And you can't always trust salesmen and such. So many times for beginners it's best to go with something that someone you trust recommends.

[davidarlette]

Ahem, Gollum,

Being Firestream, shouldn't you be going the whole hog in terms of shape, too? You know, Explorer, Flying V, Rich Bich or something like this:

http://www.bcrich.com/virgo.html

or:

http://www.bcrich.com/beast_nt.html

I'm sure Ibanez would make copies of these, they are availbale at a budget price in Australia anyway.
Then you'd look the part too!:D :electric:

[Gollum]

I'm much more interested in quality for the price than looks. Looks are always secondary to me, and a guitar that's form following function can be much prettier sometimes, such as the parker guitars.

I'm not gonna say BC rich is always crap, but I've never played one that felt worth their price, and they're not terribly expensive guitars. Their higher end stuff is pretty good, but I just think that when you buy one of their budget or midrange guitars you're getting it MORE for the looks than anything else.

And trust me, the music + stage presence isn't very affected by the guitar you wield.

[davidarlette]

I was just making a joke, Dood. :p The ones that look like Gibsons you recommended would sound quite good I'd reckon, but I am a little surprised you'd recommend them for metal. I'm surprised you'd go for anything single-coil for metal too. Just ineterested, that's all.

I've found there is a diference between overdrive and distortion. If you listen to say Metallica, there is no distortion. The notes are clean. They've got grunt, but they're not distorted. That means heaps of hum from a single coil, or am I wrong there? ie playing with a singl coil near an overdriven tube amp?

Have you ever played a flying V or an Explorer and if so, what did you think?

I absolutely agree with what you said about a Les Paul, and hope one day to own a Les Paul Standard, maybe with Tiger Stripe Sunburst. They have great sustain (I read the aim was like around 25 seconds).

[Gollum]

I wasn't biting your head off, no worries. I'm pretty laid back in my posts here.

I guess I'll give my whole overdrive/distortion speech though. It's kinda like the whole square and rectangle thing. A square can be a rectangle but a rectangle can't be a square. Overdrive can be distortion, but distortion can't be overdrive.

Now, because of the nature of a tube amp you can have huge heaps of "overdrive" that's much more like heavy distortion. The issue is people definition of the word and it's relation to sounds. It's important to know the mechanical difference of overdrive and what makes it so different. Overdrive implies you're just "overdriving" a circuit. Basically going past the edge of clean. With tubes 100% of the distortion they create is an overdrive. Distortion that ISN'T overdrive is like a clipping diode. like in a stomp box.

Now, most of the big metal bands out there use tube amps, and if you called their sound "overdrive" most guitarists would disagree. I personally consider anything beyond blues tones distortion. I just simply don't want to agrue, and since 90% of GOOD distortion comes from tubes and overdirve I don't want to waste the word overdrive for a technicality.

And a lot of distortion tone comes from the hands too. Pick attack has a huge impact on tone.

And single coil vs humbucking isn't a huge distortion difference as compared to just tone difference.

Not a single guitar I linked to in my previous post was a single coil guitar, why? Because it's so hard to get good medal tones out of single coils. And if you do then they're lead type tones and kinda 80's. Metallica always used humbucking guitars and it's quite obvious. Malmstein uses single coils, and it's quite obvious.

The key to tone like metallica is humbucking + the right amp + the right EQ structure.

EQ plays a huge role in tone, especially in tube amps. Because in a tube amp if you add in more bass then the tubes are going to clip sooner, and bring you into overdrive sooner and will have a different type of gain.

But amps play a huge part. Half of my fun at concerts is stunning friends with how I can guess amps (make AND model) without ever seeing them. Amps like guitars have a character about them that's hard to change.

Hopefully that's a good tone 101 lesson for ya.

[axeman2415]

Malmstein uses single coils, and it's quite obvious.

Gollum, I agree with your assertion about Yngwie's tone, although he is still an astounding player. Narcissistic, but astounding. lol!

Anyway, I would like to make one ,er, correction, if you would allow. Malmsteen uses a Dimarzio HS-3 "stacked" pickup. The HS-3 fits into a single coil slot (as on a Stratocaster), but it is essentially a humbucker.

Now, it is true that Malmsteen used stock Strats (single-coils, and all) on his first few albums, and I would agree that it is quite obvious.

I would also agree that Amps play a huge role in tone. Malmsteen also uses non- master volume Marshalls. Personally, I prefer the JCM800 models, but I am biased (no pun intended, for you techheads) since I own and use one.

I agree that EQ plays a huge role in tone, as well, but I find that it shapes lead tones better, or rather, more identifiably.

But I have a question for you. Bob Rock's theory is that, to get a good tone to tape (or whatever your format), it is better to move the mic around to find the sweet spot, rather than use EQ to try to put something in that isn't there. I have found that the right mic (Shure SM-57's, personally) at the right spot on the cone records better. What are your thoughts on that?

[Gollum]

Malmstein live still uses his pickups in a split fashion so he's only using the secondary coils as a hum cancellation.

I'll talk about the rest later tonight. I'm out the door.

[axeman2415]

Malmstein live still uses his pickups in a split fashion so he's only using the secondary coils as a hum cancellation.

That's interesting. I had not read an interview, nor seen any article on that fact. But my question would be, why have them in split fashion (thus nullifying the humbucking process, I assume), when he could just use the regular single coils?

If you could, would you provide your source of info on that? I would really like to understand Malmsteen's reason for this.

[Gollum]

Because a split coil won't hum. A strat with all single coils set in either the 1, 3, or 5 position will hum.

I know this because a friend of mine did sound for one of his concerts about 2 years ago. He'd talked with his guitar tech about his guitar setup quite a bit. I have no reason to doubt this friend of mine, been a friend for a long time and is a trust worthy guy.

As far as the mic question goes, I don't really believe there's a "right" answer, but many different answers depending on what you want to do.

Most studio engineers when recording guitar all by itself in a sound room will have anywhere from 5 to 30 mics on a cab. They're use multiple mics as your EQ. Many times you CAN find a sweet spot the amp sings but even then the EQ might not be quite perfect so mixing in other mics can get you that perfect studio sound without needing much EQ. It's very important to have a GOOD base to start with. If you only have ONE mic to work with and your room isn't very good and you don't have time/resources to find that perfect position for that room then it's best to mic right up next to the speaker centered in the valley of the cone, straight on or off axis no more than 45 degrees. You can go more than that, but you need to know what you're going for and such. More than 45 degrees and the mic becomes more of an effect than a representation. Mics are good effects, but it's good to know that you're using it AS ONE first.

Many of the best guitar tracks recorded of all time get their magic from mic techniques. Another thing that's REALLY good to do is to have two mics, one up close and the other far away with an adjustable cone on it to help capture sound (acting like a big ear). Then you can blend the two together, then adjust the spacing in time between the two to get the amount of the room effect you want.

It's also important to know what happens EQ wise when your mic starts picking up things off axis. Experiment a lot if you can with headphones and see what happens as you adjust your mic position. Off axis will cut off lots of the harsh highs and help keep the frequency response more even and less boomy, but will make it warmer overall. But if you've got ice picky highs then this can cut out some of that problem.

Another thing to understand is cab/room dynamics. Your room is like a huge cab and will have it's own resonate frequencies and reflections. A cab produces its' own sound and lots of it. A cab is a HUGE part of your sound. Think about this, if you take a speaker out of a cab, it'll sound like a 2 watt radio from the 20's. No depth, no presence, no nothing. Put that speaker in a cab, and it comes alive. Most of this is because the speaker needs something to hold it so it can push against something. The second big part is that the cab acts like the body of an acoustic guitar and amplifies the sound.

Have you ever heard a guitar player say the strings are more important than the body on an acoustic guitar? Sure they can have a huge impact on tone, say like steel vs nylon, but the body is really what you care about. In the same sense a cab is a huge part of tone and should be treated as such. When you mic a cab directly on the speaker you're basically throwing away more than half of the tone the cab is giving you. You're basically saying "I just want YOU speaker", and the only thing the cab is there for is to give the speaker something to push off of.

In a studio environment you get the chance to REALLY work the cab for what it's worth, but the issue here is that you have to get far away from the speaker to start getting that CAB sound, and your room comes into play as soon as you get more than about 2 feet from the speaker. Ideally we could all record outside where the audio never comes back, but this isn't the case for anyone really. This is why so many mics might be used in a studio, because even in a studio the walls aren't ideal so they use tons of mics to find the right balance of CAB/room tones.

Does that makes sense? Hopefully it did.

In all honesty though, I'm still a far cry from an expert on the subject, I've just been taught much of the logic behind it all because I know people with degrees in the subject.

[davidarlette]

Gollum, thanks for distortion 101. I haven't had a chance to play through nice tube amps, but transistor clipping distortion to me sounds like a garage version trying to get the sound of great bands, but getting more hiss than grunt. ie really missing the mark.

You guys are heaps more knowledgeable than me, but I was reading the other day that the original strats came out with a three way selector switch (1,3,5) and that people discovered nicer tones by leaving the swith hanging between two selections, so Fender added the 2 and 4. I believe some customised wiring was needed to get the out of phase hum cancelling effect by using two adjacent coils.

So what do you call GOOD distortion, if not overdrive, to distinguish it from the hiss that is supposed to pass for distortion on cheaper amps? Is there anything you can do settings-wise to improve the "distortion" or "overdrive" modes on cheaper amps (transistor).

[Gollum]

Well to me good tone, regardless of it being distortion or overdrive, is something that can be used musically. Fuzz if used correctly can be musical. As long as it's musical and not just noise then it can be good tone.

As far as making a solid state amp sound GOOD, well that's a bit hard. Many times a good solid state pedal will sound better than your amp, but there's no way to know for sure ahead of time. One thing you can do is go with a tube preamp pedal like a damage control pedal, but those are as expensive as many amps out there. You can also usually trust the staples of the industry like the tube screamer, or the big muff. It's always hard to say if you'll like them or not though.

With solid state amps all of your tone is created in the preamp section. If your EQ sucks then that's kinda the killer of the amp. A good EQ on a solid state amp can do wonders for the problems with solid state. Solid state amps tend to create harsh harmonics that can be tamed a bit with a good EQ. The issue with an EQ pedal is that the preamp will still create those frequencies no matter what because that's thier distortion, the EQ has to be AFTER those harsh frequencies are created in order for it to work.

As far as what YOU can do? Try everything. Start with your EQ down and work your way up. Start all the way up and work everything down.Turn your guitar tone down a bit and EQ from there. Try it all and see what you like and make a note physical or mental about it.